Curse

Free Runner · Jun 11, 2009, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Primordus does not fly anywere. It explicty says that he is in the depths. Here is the exact line:

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To this day, he continues to spread his power throughout the deep caverns beneath Tyria.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 11, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

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Originally Posted by Operative 14

I'm sorry, but this has been bugging me since the other topic. How do we know that Grothmar is the water dragon?

As Leon said, through concept art. In fact, we only call Grothmar the water dragon because of the concept art. The concept art of Grothmar is the only place that says "water dragon."

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I left out the Sylvari and Primordus as with the latter I'd have to cover practically the entire map, and the former, is basically a minority.

How do you know the Sylvari will be a minority? :P

Also, in Leon's map, I'd spread Drakkar's territory north, the White Mantle would be on the boarder and the Maguuma Centaur on the other side. And Lion's Arch is also occupied by the Zaishen Order in GW2, not just corsairs.

Lion's Arch, in GW2, has become a city ruled by Corsairs and the Zaishen. It'll be interesting how it turns out, in my opinion. You have one group who would rule the city as a "the only law is that there is no law" kind of place, while the other would probably make it a second battle isles.

Neo Atomisk · Jun 11, 2009, 12:08 PM // 12:08

So Primordus stays.

I can't see Grothmar flying down, or why the Water Dragon would fly to a desert.
I'd expect Drakkar to control the Far shiverpeaks, and have the Far north dragon fly down over ascalon.

leon: I am guessing that the Sylvari will coexist with the asura, they both seem to be for peace and neutrality.

And Mursaat land is relevant, they're clearly the antagonists of GW2

Doc Zenith · Jun 11, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Which one is the dragon who's sleeping beneath where used to be Orr?O?

Neo Atomisk · Jun 11, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

"Malchor" is the dragon that rose up with Arah, controls all passage in the body of water south of the Tarnished coast (the pink line), he might also be dragon that controls the crystal desert.

If Grothmar is the water dragon, and "In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land", there might be some conflict. I could see Grothmar controlling water, or even somehow getting to a true body of water (not the little lake in the charr homelands), but I could never see Grothmar actually flying.

Operative 14 · Jun 11, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Concept artwork of it was named as such.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As Leon said, through concept art. In fact, we only call Grothmar the water dragon because of the concept art. The concept art of Grothmar is the only place that says "water dragon."

I assume you're talking about this peice of work? If so, I'd have to say that the concept for Grothmar has changed drastically since it was first created and named. For one thing, he was near a coastline or a very large body of water in that original peice, certainly not that little puddle where he resides in actuallity. Also, as you mentioned previously Konig, the Charr don't have ships that we know of, certainly not any multi-masted long range ships shown in that concept. It seems more plausible to me that that image was called the "Waterdragon" becuase it has a dragon with water in it.

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Originally Posted by Movement of the World

Primordus was the first of the ancient dragons to awaken, calling his servants from their slumber. With his breath, he twisted earth and stone, shaping creatures and giving them life. Although the death of the Great Destroyer, his most powerful general, set back the dragon's awakening by two generations, Primordus once again rose to create ever more minions far beneath the ground. To this day, he continues to spread his power throughout the deep caverns beneath Tyria.

After Primordus, the other great dragons began to stir one by one. The rise of the dragon beneath Orr caused the entire continent to surface, sparking a tidal wave that swept the coastline and drowned thousands. In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land. Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon’s flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

---

An elder dragon of ice and snow arose in the farthest northern peaks, driving even the most stalwart hunters south into Dwarven lands. There they found abandoned Dwarven forts and a new challenge in the form of the Dredge, the old nemeses of the Dwarves, now almost unrecognizable from the primitive, frightened creatures of the past.

---
[The Order of Whispers] work with the Krytans and Ascalonians, and even maintain a presence in Elona, although crossing the Crystal Desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert.

---
The four primary legions of the Charr, the Ash Legion, Blood Legion, Gold Legion, and Iron Legion, each control city-strongholds, spread out across the eastern lands. Charr warbands strike out from these safe havens to defend their territories, battling the shades of Ascalonian warriors, the twisted servants of the desert dragon, and the horrifying beasts that come up from beneath the ground throughout Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks.

Those are quotes from the GW2 Wiki entry on the Movement, so correct me if the articles been summarized (by one of you

) and I'm missing someone. However, based on that, we have the following Dragons;

Primordious - Who is gathering his power underground and does not go anywhere that we know of, south, north, east, or west,.
Orrian Dragon (Malchor?) - Who rises Orr and rules there, creates an undead navy, and separates us from Cantha
Deep Sea Dragon - Resides in the ocean, but affected the inland waters as well
Dragon of Ice and Snow - Maybe Drakkar, maybe the the Dragon North of The Eye, drove the Norn south.
Desert Dragon -Holds Palawa in check, keeps the Charr from expanding south, and flew south from the Northern mountains (it doesn't say this directly but I infer that since the one dragon awoke in the mountains and left the contrail of evil behind it to fly south over Ascalon, it would have ended up settling in the Crystal desert)

And we have visible:

Primordious - during the A Time for Heros quest below the Central Transfer Chamber - Check!
Drakkar - Beneath Drakkar lake, possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
Grothmar - The very big guy in Grothmar Wardowns.
The Ice Serpent - Ice Cliff Chasms north of The Eye - seems too minor to be one of the dragons, but still - also possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
The Canthan Light Hous... sorry, couldn't resist Konig.

That being the case, it seems like we're missing any sort of mention as to what role Grothmar plays. He's not in the Northern mountains, and it seems like there's doubt as to whether he could even fly, making it highly questionable as to whether he could be the Desert dragon. And he's not the water dragon, because (unless I'm missing a reference to another dragon) the only "Water Dragon" (a name that comes from filename in the above link concept art) is the deep sea dragon. So... who is Grothmar? :/

Gmr Leon · Jun 11, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

How do you know the Sylvari will be a minority? :P

I don't. Really, the main reason, is that I'd have to undo the painting I had already done, and more or less, it just would've taken a bit more time.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, in Leon's map, I'd spread Drakkar's territory north, the White Mantle would be on the boarder and the Maguuma Centaur on the other side.

I had thought of that, with Drakkar, but I was going mostly off the information we have. As such, there's nothing to say it expands its domain northward. As to the Maguuman Centaurs, I don't think they'd even fit on the map anymore, as they were pushed west during the flooding caused by Malchor's rise.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And Lion's Arch is also occupied by the Zaishen Order in GW2, not just corsairs.

Lion's Arch, in GW2, has become a city ruled by Corsairs and the Zaishen. It'll be interesting how it turns out, in my opinion. You have one group who would rule the city as a "the only law is that there is no law" kind of place, while the other would probably make it a second battle isles.

Now that, I can honestly say I had forgotten, as the Zaishen aren't really a major group. Although, are you certain it says the Zaishen, and not simply priests of Balthazar? I was probably just thinking they were destroyed after the Battle Isles flooded.

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Originally Posted by Operative XIV

I assume you're talking about this peice of work? If so, I'd have to say that the concept for Grothmar has changed drastically since it was first created and named. For one thing, he was near a coastline or a very large body of water in that original peice, certainly not that little puddle where he resides in actuallity. Also, as you mentioned previously Konig, the Charr don't have ships that we know of, certainly not any multi-masted long range ships shown in that concept. It seems more plausible to me that that image was called the "Waterdragon" becuase it has a dragon with water in it.

That is the piece of work, and while you're probably right that it was named due to it being in water, it must be remembered that the similarities are striking. Not only that, but it is concept artwork, which means that it's simply that, the concept, and it would of course need to be altered before being put into the game.

If I showed you the concept art of Drakkar, you wouldn't think it was the same thing either. Things change as they are placed in the game, either due to limitations of the game's engine or deadlines to meet.

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Originally Posted by Operative XIV

That being the case, it seems like we're missing any sort of mention as to what role Grothmar plays. He's not in the Northern mountains, and it seems like there's doubt as to whether he could even fly, making it questionable as to whether he could be the Desert dragon. And he's not the water dragon, because (unless I'm missing a reference to another dragon) the water dragon is the deep sea dragon. So... who is Grothmar? :/

It's mostly been accepted that Grothmar is the one that flies south over Ascalon, as it's the only thing that really fits the description of a dragon. Neo is the only one doubting whether or not Grothmar could fly, really. Besides, after having played Shadow of the Colossus, I believe anything can fly, regardless of size.

Also, for the sake of clarity, we should have stopped calling Grothmar the water dragon months ago. As Grothmar was the name given to it for shorthand, after the area where you can first see it. Plus, it's easier to type than Dalada or Sacnoth. As to Drakkar, I'm pretty bloody sure that's meant to be the dragon of ice and snow, as Linsey mentioned there were plans for it, there's concept artwork that depicts it as being more dragonlike in nature, and the area's name can be translated to dragon. Need we anymore evidence for the time being?

Aside from that..We can't call whatever dragon it is Grothmar if Grothmar isn't Grothmar, as we only gave it that name due to the area.

Operative 14 · Jun 11, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That is the piece of work, and while you're probably right that it was named due to it being in water, it must be remembered that the similarities are striking. Not only that, but it is concept artwork, which means that it's simply that, the concept, and it would of course need to be altered before being put into the game.

If I showed you the concept art of Drakkar, you wouldn't think it was the same thing either. Things change as they are placed in the game, either due to limitations of the game's engine or deadlines to meet.

Oh definately, I think that's the point I was trying to make. Although it definitively shows the Grothmar Wardowns Dragon, I have no quarral with that, the filename doesn't prove that it is a new Water Dragon. I think mostly I was just arguing against the idea of it being the water dragon becuase there was no mention of a water dragon seperate from the Deep Sea Dragon in the movement. And, also, becuase I thought that basing such a major peice of lore supposition off of a filename was a bit questionable.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It's mostly been accepted that Grothmar is the one that flies south over Ascalon, as it's the only thing that really fits the description of a dragon. Neo is the only one doubting whether or not Grothmar could fly, really. Besides, after having played Shadow of the Colossus, I believe anything can fly, regardless of size.

Also, for the sake of clarity, we should have stopped calling Grothmar the water dragon months ago. As Grothmar was the name given to it for shorthand, after the area where you can first see it. Plus, it's easier to type than Dalada or Sacnoth. As to Drakkar, I'm pretty bloody sure that's meant to be the dragon of ice and snow, as Linsey mentioned there were plans for it, there's concept artwork that depicts it as being more dragonlike in nature, and the area's name can be translated to dragon. Need we anymore evidence for the time being?

Aside from that..We can't call whatever dragon it is Grothmar if Grothmar isn't Grothmar, as we only gave it that name due to the area.

I can buy that. I agree and think it's possible that anything, any size could fly in a game like Guild Wars. I think the only question I have is that it's not in the "Northern Mountains". However that could be attributable to infering the wrong thing from the movement, or simply the plan changing from one month to another at Arenanet.

As for Drakkar, there wasn't really much question in my mind either. I was just trying to summarize what the Movement article said versus a year or two worth of ideas.

Lishy · Jun 11, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

Gmr Leon · Jun 11, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

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Originally Posted by Operative 14

I can buy that. I agree and think it's possible that anything, any size could fly in a game like Guild Wars. I think the only question I have is that it's not in the "Northern Mountains". However that could be attributable to infering the wrong thing from the movement, or simply the plan changing from one month to another at Arenanet.

I had a thought as I was responding to your other post, that for some reason I didn't post, and it was that Grothmar itself might have been viewed as a small mountain range of sorts.

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Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

Nope, most take that as being another Giganticus Lupicus skeleton.

Obrien Xp · Jun 11, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

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Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

I had totally forgotten about that thing!

Though Giganticus Lupicus would make sense I suppose.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 11, 2009, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Lots of big posts since I fell asleep...

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Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

I can't see Grothmar flying down, or why the Water Dragon would fly to a desert.
I'd expect Drakkar to control the Far shiverpeaks, and have the Far north dragon fly down over ascalon.

Why would the dragon of Ice and Snow go to a Desert?

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Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

If Grothmar is the water dragon, and "In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land", there might be some conflict. I could see Grothmar controlling water, or even somehow getting to a true body of water (not the little lake in the charr homelands), but I could never see Grothmar actually flying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I assume you're talking about this peice of work? If so, I'd have to say that the concept for Grothmar has changed drastically since it was first created and named. For one thing, he was near a coastline or a very large body of water in that original peice, certainly not that little puddle where he resides in actuallity. Also, as you mentioned previously Konig, the Charr don't have ships that we know of, certainly not any multi-masted long range ships shown in that concept. It seems more plausible to me that that image was called the "Waterdragon" becuase it has a dragon with water in it.

I have to agree with you, O14, we only use the name "water dragon" due to the concept art, and it seems to me that the Water Dragon could have been intended for coastline (or orrian edge - those could be Corsair ships) or an island in the Unending Ocean. Thus the name could be out of date - so to speak. Even though it is still an island.

I suggest we drop the "water dragon" name completely and just settle with "Grothmar."

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Originally Posted by Operative 14

Primordious - Who is gathering his power underground and does not go anywhere that we know of, south, north, east, or west,.
Orrian Dragon (Malchor?) - Who rises Orr and rules there, creates an undead navy, and separates us from Cantha
Deep Sea Dragon - Resides in the ocean, but affected the inland waters as well
Dragon of Ice and Snow - Maybe Drakkar, maybe the the Dragon North of The Eye, drove the Norn south.
Desert Dragon -Holds Palawa in check, keeps the Charr from expanding south, and flew south from the Northern mountains (it doesn't say this directly but I infer that since the one dragon awoke in the mountains and left the contrail of evil behind it to fly south over Ascalon, it would have ended up settling in the Crystal desert)

And we have visible:

Primordious - during the A Time for Heros quest below the Central Transfer Chamber - Check!
Drakkar - Beneath Drakkar lake, possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
Grothmar - The very big guy in Grothmar Wardowns.
The Ice Serpent - Ice Cliff Chasms north of The Eye - seems too minor to be one of the dragons, but still - also possibly the Dragon of Ice and Snow
The Canthan Light Hous... sorry, couldn't resist Konig.

That being the case, it seems like we're missing any sort of mention as to what role Grothmar plays. He's not in the Northern mountains, and it seems like there's doubt as to whether he could even fly, making it highly questionable as to whether he could be the Desert dragon. And he's not the water dragon, because (unless I'm missing a reference to another dragon) the only "Water Dragon" (a name that comes from filename in the above link concept art) is the deep sea dragon. So... who is Grothmar? :/

Funny O14. Anyways, the Ice Pillar creature cannot be the Dragon of Ice and Snow, why? As I pointed out, it is south of the Norn settlements, and would push the Norn north when the Movement says they are pushed south.

Grothmar could still be able to fly, we do not see his whole body, just his back (if that is even is back! For all we know, it could be the top of his head, or his tale, or belly, or something), so I don't think we should count him out as being unable to fly yet.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Now that, I can honestly say I had forgotten, as the Zaishen aren't really a major group. Although, are you certain it says the Zaishen, and not simply priests of Balthazar? I was probably just thinking they were destroyed after the Battle Isles flooded.

It does say priests of Balthazar, but the priests are part of the Zaishen, are they not?

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Originally Posted by Operative 14

I can buy that. I agree and think it's possible that anything, any size could fly in a game like Guild Wars. I think the only question I have is that it's not in the "Northern Mountains". However that could be attributable to infering the wrong thing from the movement, or simply the plan changing from one month to another at Arenanet.

Or it could be that the Charr Homelands is on the other side of Mountains (kind of does look like some mountains south of Grothmar, in my opinion) and that to the human settlement, it is not in, but past the Northern Mountains. Or it could be a misplacement/bad wording/bad communication between Anet staff. Or it could be that they intend to move Grothmar north for GW2.

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Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Could the bone dragon under the bridge in the catacombs perhaps be what corrupts ascalon?

How can bones be a living dragon? There is only one undead dragon, which is in Orr. Those bones, and all others found, are Giganticus Lupicus.

Also, the Ancient Dragons were made after the creation and release of Nightfall.

Neo Atomisk · Jun 11, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Konig, I'm not saying that Drakkar flies down to the desert, but that another Dragon hidden in the mountains farther North flies down to the desert.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 11, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Either way, everyone's adding too many dragons.

I think it's rather cramped enough with 5/6 large and powerful beings in the same continent. Do we really need to end up having 7 or 8? Shesh....

Think about it, if there was a dragon north of Grothmar, and it flew over Grothmar, I'm sure that there would be a battle between them.

Let us stop trying to make new dragons, and work with what we know we have, which is Primodus, Drakkar/Dragon of Snow and Ice, Grothmar/Northern Mountain Dragon, Malchor/Undead Dragon, and the Deep Sea Dragon. Possibly the Desert Dragon being a sixth one.

Gmr Leon · Jun 11, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I suggest we drop the "water dragon" name completely and just settle with "Grothmar."

*coughmoreorlesssaidthatcough*

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

It does say priests of Balthazar, but the priests are part of the Zaishen, are they not?

I'd have to look at the Movement, but assuming that, simply because they are priests of Balthazar, they belong to the Zaishen, is just as bad as assuming the Shaman are all casters. Yes, those priests of Balthazar were the remnants of the Zaishen that reunited in Lion's Arch after the flooding of the Battle Isles.

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Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

Konig, I'm not saying that Drakkar flies down to the desert, but that another Dragon hidden in the mountains farther North flies down to the desert.

Why can't Grothmar BE the mountains that the dragon in question erupts from? Somewhere here, someone, I want to say Draxynnic, suggested something like what we see in Grothmar Wardowns being something of a cocoon or something. Not sure..I'll have to see if I can find it.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 12, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

*coughmoreorlesssaidthatcough*

I typed that out before I read your response.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'd have to look at the Movement, but assuming that, simply because they are priests of Balthazar, they belong to the Zaishen, is just as bad as assuming the Shaman are all casters. Yes, those priests of Balthazar were the remnants of the Zaishen that reunited in Lion's Arch after the flooding of the Battle Isles.

It's not that bad, to be honest. But, if I remember correctly, the Priests of Balthazar were a part of the Zaishen. Though, I could be wrong.

Neo Atomisk · Jun 12, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Im not saying 7 or 8, but 5 dragons.
Primordus
Drakkar
Grothmar
Far north dragon
Malchor

I doubt that Grothmar would fight with the north dragon, as Grothmar is still sleeping.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 12, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

You forgot the Deep Sea Dragon. And you were claiming at points that the Ice Pillar creature was a dragon of it's own. Thus, 7. And at a point you claimed for there to be a dragon above Drakkar. Which would make 8.

Neo Atomisk · Jun 12, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

the dragon above drakkar is the far north dragon, i am not viewing the ice cliffs serpent as a dragon, and i did miss the deep sea dragon, so 6.

I'll make a new map of what I think is going on tommorow, now that i've worked out a few kinks.

Obrien Xp · Jun 12, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

You forgot the Deep Sea Dragon. And you were claiming at points that the Ice Pillar creature was a dragon of it's own. Thus, 7. And at a point you claimed for there to be a dragon above Drakkar. Which would make 8.

Yeah, koing has it, we're making too many dragons. All I have agreed on is Grothmar, Drakkar, Primodrious, and Malchor. Those are the only confirmed ones. As far as I'm concerned there are 4 atm. There needs to be one more (sure the desert one, why not) so that there is 1 per playable race. That is how I see it will be.

Asura: Primordious (underground)
Charr: Grothmar (Ascalon and area)
Humans: Malchor (Orr*)
Norn: Drakkar (Shiverpeaks)
Sylvari: Desert/unknown (That's the only one left so I cannot think of another one)

*edit-whoops